Heating for smaller tanks etc

by **mickelmass** Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 22:42

Hi all

I just joined this forum for some assistance as I am hoping to start breeding Bettas soon as they are one tropical fish which I have never, ever bred and only ever kept one now, in a 60L community aquarium with about a dozen very peaceful tank mates and he is thriving!

Could somebody advise as to how I can heat a shelf of small Betta tanks (all smae size) that are used to keep the males in please? I used to breed Carolina Corn Snakes (Lavenders, Candy Corns, Ghosts, Reds, Melanistics, Anyrithristics etc, you name the colour morph and I bred it - LOL!) and to heat the small plastic pet pens that I kept the hatchlings in, I used either long heat pad strips with a reostat temerature regulator or the heat wire system, where the wire was set into a groove in the shelf and covered with silver, heat reflecting tape. This worked very well indeed and kept one end of the tank warm and the other cool, so the cornies could regulate their body temeratures.

I was wondering if this type of systen would work with small male Betta tanks, only instead of just half the tank on the heat pad strip, put the whole tank on it, as they are made to be able to handle up to a certain weight anyway and they would only be small, holding tanks and still control the temperature with an external reostat or I suppose the heat strip could be controlled by an external or internal aquarium thermostat being that all the tanks will be exactly the same size? I don't have a spare room to convert as a Betta breeding room and could keep the heated all the time but I do have a very nice, airy cupboard which would be ideal for shelving and a couple of tables for the holding and growing on tanks etc. Could somebody please davice on the best way of heating the small tanks of the same size adequately please? Many thanks and apologies for waffling, it's an age thing - LOL! Regards, Mike

by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 22:47

Hi Mike &

Using a reptile heat mat is absolutely fine thumbup

We have done exactly the same thing. We found that by using very thin sheets of polystyrene sheets we could regulate the temperature quite well. We've also used a stat on the mat too
Very Happy

Andy

by **mickelmass** Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 23:12

Damn! That's absolutely the answer I wanted to hear! I had visions of people getting really nasty and telling me that this would not be a good way of heating the tanks at all and would be cruel! Thank you so very much! Now on Tuesday payday, I can get the heat pads and reostats and get it all set up on the shelving in my cupboard!

Can I ask what type of small tanks/jars or whatever do you use to hold the males in please? I have seen some very nice 1.5L pet pens that I used to use for the corn snake hatchlings at a decent price on eBay but I thought that 1.5L might be a bit small? They did have some larger ones but then there is the problem of not having enough room on the shelves for all the males and young males when they mature. Also, what type of lighting do you use please? I know the rest about keeping and breeding Bettas as I have been reading up a lot on it but they don't give much detail on the keeping of the males seperatley and the females either for that matter, if you have (say) three or four breeding males and about 5 or 6 breeding females. I certainly don't intend to start this as a business, purely just part of my tropical fish hobby as I have never bred Betta before. I just want to see if I can do it get some really nice babies to boot, which I can possibly give to other breeders to breed from, thus keeping the gene pool nice and clean. Cheers! Mike.

by **incognito** Sat 30 Jan 2010 - 23:55

1.5 to 2 ltrs are fine for jarring and holding for a few weeks... just not suitable for adult sized fish for long term.

My jarring tanks are 3litres but if i run out of space i will improvise with something a bit smaller without adverse affects. ( similar to this... [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]h**p://www.cheappetproducts.net/VendorPics/Full/SLE/SLE20025.jpg

my little tanks are on a drip system and i just light the whole room with a daylight bulb and a tube light but i'm sure a few aquarium florescents would work fine with what you're aiming for.

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 0:57

They are exactly the same type that I have and have more on order! When you say you use polystyrene with the heating pads, I preume you mean under them and not on top of them? Or maybe you do mean on top of them as I suppose that way, it will hold and dissipate the heat more evenly for the small tanks? I have a light in the cupboard that I am using but I will get a couple of those clip on tube lights that you can now get, as well. They are actually energy saver tubes, so saving money yet again. LOL! They do give off a bit of heat but not enough to up the heat of the tank water. Cheers again, you advice is very much appreciated [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] Mick

EDIT:
Could you explain what the drip system is please? Is it for filtering the water? I was going to buy loads of the small, internal sponge air pump driven filters for each of the tanks, unless there is a cheaper and easier way? Cheers!

by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 1:16

Hi
At Homebase they sell a roll of polystyrene, approx 2mm thick. When we have used heatmats on flat bottomed containers we found that the temp was too high, so used a few sheets of it to adjust the temp. Put it between the mat and comtainer. However when we used containers that had little feet things, the temp appeared fine without Very Happy

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 2:46

This is brilliant! You are so helpful and I apologise for keep messaging you every five minutes at this hour of the morning but I tend to stay up late weekends as it's the only time I can as I have to get up at five weekdays to be ready for the cab to take me to the unit to get hooked up to "the abomination". So it's nice to talk to someone who also keeps tropical fish/Betta. I used to keep 8 tropical tanks years ago before my transplant but gave it all up once I got the kidney from my mum, as I had a new life then and a lot of other things to catch up on. Now the kidney is dead after 27 years, I have gone back into the fish keeping hobby but so very much has changed over those 27 odd years, that I get totally confused most of the time, which isn't really difficult for me [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] - LOL!

I have seen some 47" x 6" heat strip mats on eBay quite cheap and I presume that this is the type that I will need - long and thin (said the actress to the bishop - [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.] )? Rather than fork out over £25 for a proper Habistat heat mat reo/thermostat, I was wondering if the heat strips could be hooked up to an internal aquarium thermostat (without heater obviosuly)? Seeing as all the small tanks are going to be exactly the same size with exactly the same amount of water in them, it should be possible (in theory anyway) to put just one internal aquarium thermostat in one tank, hook it up to the heat mat and it should (he says) technically heat all the other tanks up to the same temperature as well? Well, in principle that sounds good but I don't know if that would work as maybe I might need a couple of more internal aquarium thernostats? And I will get some of that stuff from Homebase as you recommended as even if I fins I dont need it, it's there for another time in case I do? Many thanks again, you are a great help! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 5:38

Hi
I'm up late too lol Been having an argument on a reptile forum with someone who's always right lol

I cant foresee any problems with using an internal aquarium thermostat thumbup

Like you said, all the tanks will be exactly the same.

I've used that polystyrene for all sorts of things too LOL

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 11:02

Hi again

Funny you should say that about a reptile forum as I used to belong to a few years ago when I used to breed Carolina Corn Snakes and there was a guy on one of the forums, exactly the same as the guy you are now arguing with. Nothing you could say was right, yet everything he said was bloody gospel and it got really annoying for everyone on the forum! OK, he was a very, very learned man and certainly knew his reptiles, Corns in particular, but whenever we asked for advice, we would get the whole lecture and the full run down and dressing down on what we have done wrong (when that's not even what we were asking his advice about) and what he did was always right - NOT! His name was JIm and he was from Scotland, just in case it might be a coincidence? LOL! He was so damned obnixious and cocky!

I just found a set of shelving in my cupboard which will be ideal for the critters pen thingys. I forgot it was there and it's also where I am going to be keeping the Betta as well anyway! It has four shelves about 14" apart and each shelf is 26" long x 12" wide, so there should be ample room on them to get a few critter pens thingys on. I have also seen some 23" x 6" heat pad strips on eBay for £13.95 a shot. Damned expensive and I am sure there must be places where they can be got for cheaper than that? The Habistat thermostats are around the £25 mark but if the internal tank thermostats work OK, that will save one hell of a lot of money there.

All I have to do now is find somebody who has some stock Betta for sale, either young male and females or even adult ones. I know they will be good stock if they come from anyone on this site but there doesn't seem to be a lot for sale at the moment? I have seen a very nice Adult Red/Blue Crowntail male on eBay but he wants £20.00 for it, plus £9.50 p&p. I don't mind paying the p&p as I know that tropical fish have to be sent heated, double bagged etc, and recorded and that can be expensive but I thought £20 was a bit steep for that Betta but I am no expert, so I could be wrong?

by **incognito** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 12:14

Here's an old thread with pics of my drip system and pics of Van's tanks too

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 13:05

Christ! There is no way I could set something up like that! LOL! But saying that, it looks like an excellent system. I was just going to buy about a dozen of those internal sponge filters and operate them with a couple of air pumps that I have sitting doing nothing, and the air pumps are brand spanking new Eheim double ones as well.

The little Algarde sponge filters are quite cheap ones and you can get spare sponges for them as well but althopugh everything I have every read about breeding Betta always says it is best to use an internal air pump operated sponge filter, never having used them before, I don't know if they woukd do the job or not. But seeing as all the forums and help sites are saying that's what to use, I would think they do work?.

From what I have read on some of the other forums and I believe this one as well, it is suggested that it is the air pump operated sponge filter system that are the best to use for breeding Betta as the males don't like a lot of water current when building their bubble nests? I suppose that the trickle system is OK if you are using lots of small critter type pens which would then make it quite economical.

So obviosuly, the drip system just slowly drips warm water into the critter pens using the external pump to carry the flow up to the tanks and I presume you used clamps or something like that, to regulate the warm water drip flow? I know I definately won't have the room for anything like that, even more so once the home dialysis technicians put the RO water sotening and filtration unit in the cupboard as well. So I think I will just have to get by with the air pump operated internal sponge filters? I should think that they will do the job just as well won't they?

I looked at the sizes of the sponge filters and they look to be a bit on the large size to fit into those critter pen tanks, so then I thought about using the old fashioned corner filter method instead. The ones with the airline going into a very small clear plastic corner filter, with activated charcoal in the bottom and white filter fibre on the top. I think they work well to keep the critter tanks nice and clear and clean as well, however, you expert views on this matter would be greatly appreciated as I am now getting well confused?

I only intended to have about 6 or 8 small critter tanks just for males, a few 20L AIO aquariums for females. I just found the very cheap panorama all glass 20L all-in-one tanks on eBay for £38.00 and also to use some of thes same 20L tanks for rearing the fry in as well. Crikey, I am well buggered and confused now and don't know what the hell to do or what I actually need in the way of filtration now? Maybe I should just forget it all and give up as I can't see this working on the small scale that I can afford? Such a shame as I really had my heart set on getting some fine Betta stock and trying my hand at breeding them but maybe it's not to be? Anyway, thanks again for your brilliant help and assistance. It is much appreciated.

EDIT:
I apologise for waffling on but I am just in a state of total panick now! I am worried on Tueday next week, when I buy all the stuff I think I need, it will all be wrong and a total waste of your time for helping me and a waste of my money buying what isn't needed? I only ever just wanted to breed some Betta, that's all but I have no idea what the hell I am doing now? Sorry for the long posts again. I tend to get a bit carried away trying to explain myself when I get nervous and panic. Maybe I had better shut my trap now and forget it all? Cheers again!

by **incognito** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 13:42

to be honest with only having a small number of the critter keeper tanks you'd be better just doing daily water changes. There really isn't the room for a filter inside them.

Doing water changes on 50-60 of them is a different matter. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 14:36

I think what I shall ow do is not bother with getting any of the critter pens at all or anything like them. I don't have the room for a full set-up to breed Betta so I may as well stop kidding myself and forget about the whole silly idea! I didn't think that I would ever be able to get a filter inside those farty little things either as they are not really meant for fish at all and I very much prefer my aquariums (even these small tanks), to have adequate filtration in them but that ain't about to happen with these silly little things!

I will still get the two 20L all-in-one aquariums though on Tuesday though as they will come in very handy for keeping a group of female Betta in one and keep the other one set up permanently for transferring fry into. I can then get a cheap/second hand 20 or 30 litre aquarium from my local aquarist shop (she has plenty), put a removeable partition in it and keep a male Betta in one side and a female Betta in the other side. Then as and when I feel I want to start breeding them, I can just lift the partion, after they have both been conditioned with bloodworm etc., and let them get on with it. I will then have the spare 20L AIO aquarium to trasfer the female to, once she has bred as she will be very tired and need a good rest on her own in a decent sized aquarium.

When she has recooperated, she can then go back in the other 20L with the other females. Then the empty side of the split aquarium where the female was, I will put another male Betta in it, ready for conditioning for the next lot of breeding from him and let the first breeding male have a well earned rest! It sounds complicated but I now know what I want and how I easily can do it and without those farty little critter pens! It's all I can do under the circumstances? Plus, all those tanks are and/or can be filtered and lit quite adequately. So probably no need for the critter pens after all - thank God after all that hassle! LOL!

by **incognito** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 17:11

I'm glad you've worked out a plan.

Most people just partition larger tanks as it is easier to maintain.

There is one thing... the male fry

You may still need a way of seperating young males in the few weeks before selling or moving them on. (around the 3 month mark as they start to get aggressive).

Anyway I'm sure you'll figure what suits you best.

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 17:52

Yes incognito, I did remember reading about the male fry but by the time they are three months old or getting to the afressives stage, that's when I will definately have to have a few dozen of the critter pens to keep the males separated. From what I have read though, I believe that on average, they only have about 30-40 eggs don't they and not all of them (if any), are guaranteed to hatch? That's when I shall really start panicking about what the hell I am going to do with 30 or 40 sub-adult Betta males and females - LOL! But I shall cross that bridge when I get to it. Thanks to everyone for all your help and apologies again for being such a pain in the butt! And rest assured, I shall be back asking dozens more questions yet before I have finished! Cheers!

by **Netty** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 17:59

In an ideal world...small spawns are much more manageable. Last March we spawned a pk line and had 114 babies survive. About 70% were males. Luckily we had all the equipment we needed to house them all separately but can honestly say we were knackered by the time they all sold. Daily water changes is no joke with that many [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 19:21

Crikey, that is brilliant! I don't know exactly where I heard that story from but it was obviously totallly wrong as far as the size of Betta spawns are concerned? I bet you had some beautiful babies though Netty? I have seen some of the pictures on this site of all the amazing colours, finnage, size, tail orientation and to be quite honest, until I joined this site and forum (and one other), I really didn't know that there were so many absolutely beautiful and totally different types and colours of Betta out there? I, like a lot of novices, thought they only came in the plain standard Solid Red or Solid Blue, with maybe the occassional (never could spell that word) throwback gene of a different colour morph. I am completely in awe at the beautiful specimens I have seen on some of the Betta sites, as they are just truly breathtaking! I can honestly see now, why so many breeders like yourself get so attached to your Betta's as they are most certainly a fish with the most character that we in the tropical fish keeping world, have or ever will, see again! Even their little facial expressions can tell it all. Now I am even more determinded to get my extra tanks on Tuesday and a couple of female Dragon Plakats that I have seen for sale on eBay, as I have two small tanks already setup, as I mentioned before. And to think that all I have is a common old, bog standard, solid blue male! But even he is a character and would be sorely missed if anything happened to him. Many thanks Netty and incognito for all your wonderful help and advice and I can't wait to see some of all of your new stock as and when you start your breeding progams again (you might even let me buy a couple from you? - LOL). Many thanks Netty and incognito. Mike

by **Netty** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 20:33

Your welcome Mike and thanks for the lovely comments [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

It is very easy to get addicted to these fish and before you know it you're house is wall to wall tanks lol

You'll be like a kid in a sweet shop when it comes time to choose what you want. Have you any idea what tail types you might be interested in breeding?

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 21:44

To be quite honest Netty, being new to all this Betta breeding, I really don't have a clue but I do rather like the Plakats (is it OK toi say that)? Especialy the Blue/Green Irridescent females as I think they look just to beautiful to be treu. I also like the Red/Green Crowntails as well, in fact, I like them all and would like to own them all! LOL.

I am not all that worried about finnage, although I do know that finnage plays a large part when breeding them but it's the colours that do it for me. Like the almost pure black ones and the Solid Copper ones and as for the Chrome Red ones, well that are reallyl a sight to behold as they really are a chrome colour! The way I look at it is as long as they are healthy, come from good stock and the gene pool is clean, then that's fine with me and I know from what I have read an spoken about on here, everyone knows exactly what they are talking about. There are no false pretences at all as there is no need for it and everyone is so kind and helpful.

But yes, I think it would have to be Plakat if I had a choice. They are not a wild variety are they althoughi believe they are originally from the wild Plakat are they not. Forgive me if I am wrong as I know very little. I do own one Betta at the moment and he is in the 60L community aquarium with 12 other very placid fish that leave him alone and therefore, he leaves them alone, although I know being a Betta, he should really be in a tank on his own, which will hopefully be rectified very soon as on Tuesday, I am ordering two new all in one 20L aquariums. One will be especially for the group of females and the other, to hold any fry for the first three months that I may get lucky enough to breed? I also have a rectangular 20-30L aquarium coming next week as well, with a partition in the middle for two breeding males as well! I can't wait to start to buld my collection up, it's so exciting.

I have one male Betta already but he is just a bog standard soild blue I think you would call him but his ventral fins are a lovely shade of deep maroon but I don't know if I should breed him with some of the pedigree stock that one can get from this site, or would he have to be breed with his own kind like himself, typical pet shop, bog standard Betta. He is very pretty though and very cute, what with his little face movement etc. I love them all, so I shouldn't really have favourites - except for Plakats that is LOL!

by **incognito** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 22:16

hi Mike,
Is you male a standard pet shop long tailed betta? If so then you really don't want to breed him with the more expensive lines, atleast until you have the experience to know what you're breeding.

You spawn a veiltail to halfmoon and a lot of the fry will be pet shop material... you spawn to plakat and same thing.

If you really want to attempt to breed, get your self a decent pair of quality fish. This doesn't make spawning and raising fry any easier (it does take a lot more time and effort for bettas than most fish unfortunately) but it helps alot to being able to sell them on.

Plakats are really pretty, I keep them myself as well as the halfmoons etc. I've a few young ones I intend to breed soon too to keep my lines going.

by **Netty** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 22:23

What she said [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

We've always found PKs to be slightly hardier than the long finned and also had better spawns with them too.

As well as thinking about what you like, you need to consider being able to sell them too. Maybe have a look around to see what's out there and what's selling.

I do know that we get lots of enquiries about Crowntails and there don't seem to be many nice UK bred ones on the market.

by **mickelmass** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 23:22

Yes Incognito, unfortunately that just what he is. When I got him, I had no idea that there were such brilliant sites as this, whereby you could actually buy real pedigree Betta, be it from domesticated or wild breed Thai or Cambodian stock. I suppose all I can do with my shop Betta now, is probably breed him with a female shop Betta? I don't want to get rid of him becasue he is so pretty. At least breeding him with a shop female will give me some insight and training for whe I get my first pedigree stock won'r it?

by **incognito** Sun 31 Jan 2010 - 23:42

If you do buy a pet shop VT female specifically to have a trial run... consider if the pet shop you buy her from look after them well enough and if so it's worth also asking if they'd have some of the fry just in case.

Posting fish is expensive and people won't pay it for a VT when they can buy one for £3 in local shop.

If they'll take the fry off your hands while you've having a trial run then go for it, if there's a chance you could be stuck with a lot of fry you can't sell or give away then I'd have a rethink.

by **mickelmass** Mon 1 Feb 2010 - 19:59

Just as a matter of interest and also so that I can learn even more but what substrate does one use for a Betta aquarium? Some boooks I have read say that you don't use any and yet others I have read have said that you do use substrate with plenty of plants, so who do I believe? Personally, I don't think an aquarium is an aquarium unless it has a nice array of plants of all sizes and colour in it but that is only my choice. My community aquarium here is quite heavily planted and the occupants are always chasing around through the plants all the time, including the "Bog Standard Betta"! LOL! I think all Betta that are purchased from non-breeder aquarist shops should now be called "Bog Standard Betta" or BSB for short. It rolls off of the tongue

and sounds good as well! [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]. I don't know where the hell that bloody raspberry blower came from but I certainly didn't put it there!

I only ask as I have two big bags of silica sand here that I was going to use for one of my larger aquariums not set up yet but I want to use it now as see what it looks like. I have seen some really nice pix on here of other members Betta tanks and they are really heavily planted. I do recall seeing a film on YouTube though, showing a lovely Betta breeding tank and that was heavily planted and the male was constantly going down to the bottom of the tank to collect the eggs and blow them back into his bubble nest and some of the eggs fell on plant leaves. He just picked them up and blew them into his nest. So is it a yes for substarate and planting or a no? Cheers!

by **Vandraco aka Bronzecat** Mon 1 Feb 2010 - 20:45

Hi

We have different set-ups for different situations. Display tanks have substrate, either sand or fine gravel along with silk plants in most. We have other tanks that are set-up without substrate, but with silk plants and caves etc.

We hardly ever use substrate in our growing out tanks for the babies. Its so much easier to keep them clean Very Happy

We use floating plants in the tanks without substrate though.

We also have three larger tanks that are fully planted with live plants.

Just depends on what the tank is for really Question

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